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EMR Problem Lists: common failures

Latest post 04-19-2008 5:01 PM by Robert Gleeman. 36 replies.
  • 03-27-2008 11:11 AM In reply to

    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    Gil Carter:


     
    Hi Terry, … so how does DescriptMed’s Problem List show
    renal insufficiency x 1'05…  with Cr 1.8 10'07 ? 
    Is its problem list restricted to ICD generated terms?  Is there a way to flexibly modify problems in it?
     








     

    It is not tied to ICD codes - It can be free texted.  This is not supposed to be a coding screen, it is more of a screen to get a snapshot of the problems.  ICD codes, while helpful in certain environments, are more clutter than anything in a problem list presentation. 

    R Terry Ellis

    DescriptMED, LLC

    Get Done, Go Home!

    Tour The Chart!

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  • 03-27-2008 1:51 PM In reply to

    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    If you look at Gil's problem list, the patient is a diabetic but he has no A1c following the dx.  Is this important?  Does the pt have any diabetic complications? Is it worthwhile to  note "without complications"?  My point is, what Gil elects to put in the list is different than another physician seeing the same pt over time, would elect to put in the list.  So when I look at Gil's problem list, the first thing I wish to do is generalize the list for all practitioners who might want that detail associated with any problem. 

    Currently, Medtuity allows freehand text to be associated with any problem on the problem list.  The text is actually placed in a list with a date and who entered it.  Hover over the problem, and the list becomes visible.  Right click and you can add to the list. Currently we have an editbox to type freehand, but also we have likely items selectable with a click (acute, chronic, resolved, improving, worsening, stable).

     It seems that other words or phrases may be appropriate for quick selection:  referred for evaluation to..., hospitalized at ...., operated on by ....., developed complications of ....,  improved with ...., diagnostic workup by .....,  confirmed by ...., without complications, started on ....,

    Can you think of any other phrases that might aid in modifying the problems in the list?   For users who like the speed of point and click, having predefined phrases helps.  I'm thinking that as these modifiers are added to problems, the additional text could be collected and placed into a dropdown.  If 75% of the time, the answer to "hospitalized at " is one of 5 hospitals, then why not have a list automatically created by the answers?  It would improve the odds of a physician using this tool.

    Matt Chase www.medtuity.com "Practice medicine, not paperwork" ™
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  • 03-27-2008 7:16 PM In reply to

    • Brendon
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    I'm in agreement with Matt.  eMedRec has tons of commentary locations and other interactions with the problem list.  I think it important for the Physician to decide how much data they need.  Simple choices and drop downs/check boxes/ai text adds can really improve the use of the system for some and be meaningless to others.

    The EMR software should not care about this.

    Brendon Holt President http://www.holtsystems.com eMedRec Medical Records Made Friendly "If it wasn't for that last minute I would never get anything done."
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  • 03-27-2008 9:24 PM In reply to

    • alborg
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    >>> Hi Al, …  Thanks for your snapshot.  It gives me a sense of what you’re working with.  Do you have a video clip of making a note and prescribing … or since we’re talking about Problem Lists, … how it’s viewed and modified while seeing the patient?

    Hi Gil:

    No video clip yet, but I'll do one as soon as I upgrade the 130 page manual. The problem list is modified mostly by typing, DNS 9 dictation, and by wizards brought on by double clicking the various fields.

    The only diagnoses to carry an ICD number are the top 4 that are used in filling in the HICF form.

    Cheers,

    Al

    Al Borges, M.D.

      Oncologist in a Small Group Practice in Virginia

      My website URL: http://msofficeemrproject.com/

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  • 03-27-2008 11:24 PM In reply to

    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    We use a flowsheet approach as well... although our time is horizontal rather than vertical...

    The vitals, labs, meds, etc flow directly from the EMR or lab interface. None of what you see here  is typed in. 

    You might ask, what is BMD doing in a diabetes flowsheet?  I participated in the CMS PQRP program last year and used diabetes LDL, A1c, BP as three criteria, and bone densitometry as the fourth. So it was easier just to stick it here, have a quick peek at the flowsheet, and pop in the answers.

     I'm still waiting on the check from CMS......


    Reddy

     

    William "Reddy" Biggs, MD Endocrinology Amarillo, Texas

    Unbiased and independent, YES!

    "Live on eClinicalWorks since 2/1/2007" http://tinyurl.com/ywqd49

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  • 03-28-2008 6:52 AM In reply to

    • Brendon
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    Reddy,

    Its in the mail. 

    We use Lists.  We can create a list for a customer on request and make it workflowable in less then a day or some lists may take weeks.  The concept of a List is that it can be any amount of data from anyplace in the database presented ot the end user and easily editable in the same easy way they do other lists.  The down side is that there is no Horizantal view, which some Physicians prefer. 

    I think as EMR's Mature or during desing time conideration where all the data goes is critical.  For example, eClinicalWorks, your product has many 1000's of Physicians and overtime many recommendations have come into development.  So they have built, and problably with some modules, rebuilt from the ground up the application software to make sure it works well together.

    I cannot tell you the hundreds of man hours spent just looking at the Database Maps we have on our walls to figure out how to integrate Users Requests into current data so that it flows, and thinking of the many things this Physician Office did not think about that others needed from the same basic request.

    I am sure that even with all this development and maturity even your provider of software has its issues.   But thats okay, so does my wife, and like great software, she gets better with time also.

    Regards,

    Brendon

    Brendon Holt President http://www.holtsystems.com eMedRec Medical Records Made Friendly "If it wasn't for that last minute I would never get anything done."
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  • 03-29-2008 4:49 PM In reply to

    • DrMurdoch
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    Brendon:
    I cannot tell you the hundreds of man hours spent just looking at the Database Maps we have on our walls to figure out how to integrate Users Requests into current data so that it flows, and thinking of the many things this Physician Office did not think about that others needed from the same basic request.

     

    The eMedRec war room !

     

     

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  • 03-30-2008 2:02 AM In reply to

    • alborg
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    So what does the war room look like: 

     OR 

     

    ???

    Al

    Al Borges, M.D.

      Oncologist in a Small Group Practice in Virginia

      My website URL: http://msofficeemrproject.com/

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  • 03-30-2008 5:59 AM In reply to

    • Gil Carter
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

         Thanks Terry ….  Your response was on point.  Will you post a screen snapshot of your Problem Lists … preferably a modestly complicated one?  :)

    ….
     
    ----------------
    “Non-responsive, Your Honor.  Please direct
    the witness to answer the question.”
     
         Hi Brendon and Matt … don’t forget the call of the question: it was about problem lists … not about hiding problem lists behind pop up and drop down buttons.  10 problems each with their own hover over or click here and there takes 20 clicks just to see the problem list.  Do y’all not get it?  Do y’all not have internists, FP’s & geriatricians using your programs? 
     
         Two reasons occur to me.  First, your users may be specialists and they may only need the limited superficial information produced by an ICD based Problem List.   But they might modify their specialty’s problem in it. 
     
         Second, your users are probably not developer physicians for the most part and might not have conceived that it were possible.  When presented with a box, one tends to think inside the box.  When you’re a developer, hopefully you think in, around and down the street from the box. 
     
         Some responses were about following each disease longitudinally with granular detail.  But the topic of discussion was about Problem Lists that give you a meaningful overview, not a question about granular viewing.  In order to keep a coherent line of discussion, I’ll post in a separate thread about following separate diseases longitudinally.
     
         So … tell me again … why is it better for physicians to have to look in 10 popup boxes or hover over screens to see a reasonable Problem List … than to see them all in one place without clicking?  This is not a big programming problem.  How could it be any simpler?  I know you can do it.  Tell me you can.  I’ll believe you. 
     
    Cheers … Gil
            Gil Carter, MD, JD  
    60 second peek movies of TSMR in regular use: http://www.TenSecondMedicalRecord.com , in regular use since 1990; pre-TSMR2008 versions remain free; uses Microsoft Word; can be used as an adjunct to other EMR programs. 
     
    Note: the text of the above post will not cut and paste with the “quote function.”
    Gil Carter, MD, JD, FP & medical programmer
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  • 03-30-2008 6:11 AM In reply to

    • Gil Carter
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

         Other items are useful in a PMH as well.  For example, where do the following show up in the usual PMH?

    wheelchair use (for weakness)
    nursing home x 12'07
    hearing aids (rather than hearing loss)
    chronic ambulatory oxygen
    caregiver in home… home health
     
         These items are so important they might need to be first in the PMH list.  And that list should Not be alphbetical.  Most important things should be listed first.
     
         PMH should be a functional list of items you want to know at a glance.  It should not be forced into an ICD code.  It is not a granular view.  It is not a place to put all the lab results.  It should function in a way that doesn’t interfere with the automatic production of an H&P.
     
    Cheers … Gil
            Gil Carter, MD, JD  
    60 second peek movies of TSMR in regular use: http://www.TenSecondMedicalRecord.com, in regular use since 1990; pre-TSMR2008 versions remain free; uses Microsoft Word; can be used as an adjunct to other EMR programs. 
     
    Note: the text of the above post will not cut and paste with the “quote function.”
    Gil Carter, MD, JD, FP & medical programmer
    • Post Points: 20
  • 03-30-2008 10:19 AM In reply to

    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    Gil,

    And the thread is about problem lists and so I will repose the question Counselor:  You did not follow your diabetic's problem list item with a hemoglobin A1c.  Is the A1c not important?

    That is my point. To you it is not important enough to list, but to another physician it is.  So you decide what to list because it is your list and no one else's list.  If you suffer a protracted illness and a partner takes over and he views that problem list, his first job is to either assume it must be normal, or that it's never been done, or it's been done many times and always > 9.0 and not worth posting because the patient will never do anything about it, or....

    If your problem list is only for you, then you decide the relative importance of each modifier. If you alone decide, then it is difficult to make the modifiers automatic and computable.  Thus, Medtuity allows just what you have now with one exception. Medtuity allows a user to hover a problem list item and add one or many modifiers to the list. These include simple point and click modifiers (acute, chronic, improving, worsening, stable) or an editbox for freehand typing. Medtuity adds the users  name and date.  It puts it into a table and reversed ordered by date. Thus far, it can do all that your list can do, except to see the modifiers you must hover over the list.  That keeps the list clean for quick reviewing, but the modifiers are available for viewing without any click.

    Regarding too many "hovers" to see modifiers on each problem list item, not every physician will want to review every problem list.  Do you really need to hover over "wheelchair for weakness".  Also, as long as any item in the problem list is editable, any user can make it longer and more descriptive.  That alone will not make your style popular because frankly, most EMRs have an editable problem list, I would guess. 

    The thread's topic is the problem list and I introduced a thought with some recent anecdotal evidence that tracking a disease process, depending upon the specialty, might require not the problem list, but a longitudinal list of values.  I don't think I trampled too much on your thread with that thought.

    I wholeheartedly support your concept of seeing some key points (problem list modifiers, as I refer to them) in the problem list. I think that you add significant value to your charting.  My problems are several fold:

    • To allow this for every user requires some generalization of the problem
    • Aiding the user by adding info automatically to the list would increase the liklihood of this concept growing in popularity (and actual use!)
    • If it is to be used by some, it cannot be a hindurance to many others. Some might shudder at trying to read your list. There must be some way to hide the modifiers because your modifiers might be my clutter.

    So I ask, what is so awkward in the "right click to modify, hover to see" concept?

    Perhaps we could add a facility-wide flag under Utilities: "Alway show problem list modifiers".  Would that satisfy your criteria for usability?

    I appreciate your thoughts and zeal for the topic, 

    Matt Chase www.medtuity.com "Practice medicine, not paperwork" ™
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  • 03-30-2008 1:06 PM In reply to

    • Gil Carter
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    Hi Matt,  :)

     
    Re: “Perhaps we could add a facility-wide flag under Utilities: "Always show problem list modifiers".  Would that satisfy your criteria for usability?”
     
         That would do it.  Thank you for understanding what I was getting at.  Thank you for being you: willing and able to go forward and not being a nay sayer. 
     
         In the past I’ve worked in a system where the user must click between more than a 100 views to get the whole picture.  It is a problem.  In total, the average appointment had over 500 clicks.  “Show PL modifiers” should do the trick.  And I like your term “Key Points.” 
     
         Of course, I’m not proposing that a Problem List should be the entire note and to log there all LDL cholesterols, all Hgb A1C’s, all creatinines, all hemoglobins. etc.  It would cease to be a Problem List.  Conversely, ICD codes are a poor substitue for Problem Lists. 
     
         I usually keep the items that are actively being followed in a granular longitudinal table.  (“Did Gil say he keeps something granular?  OMG, I think he did.”)  Another ready place is in the summary of visit diagnoses, if the EMR allows using it that way.
     
         With Problist List Modifiers showing, they’re more likely to be used.  And they are useful.  EMR users will eventually catch on.  It’s important that adding the modifer be fluid and fast.  Otherwise, no one uses it. 
     
         I look through my Problem Lists at the beginning of each appointment.  If I had to hover or click over each of 10 or more problems to see the Modifiers … I’d have more ADHD than I already have.  <W>
     
    Cheers … Gil
            Gil Carter, MD, JD  
    60 second peek movies of TSMR in regular use: http://www.TenSecondMedicalRecord.com, in regular use since 1990; pre-TSMR2008 versions remain free; uses Microsoft Word; can be used as an adjunct to other EMR programs. 
     
    Note: the text of the above post will not cut and paste with the “quote function.”
    Gil Carter, MD, JD, FP & medical programmer
    • Post Points: 5
  • 03-30-2008 4:39 PM In reply to

    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

     

    Gil,

            I don't think this is necessarily what you may be asking for, but it should illustrate the use of the screens.   Below is the Problem List screen.   If you will notice it has 14 buttons that users may customize the button text which, when clicked, will enter the button text as a problem and insert a date.   The user may then free text anywhere in the grid to add anything they wish.   Once entered the data becomes available for alerts, modification or categorization as acute or chronic on the cover sheet. (See Below)

     

    DescriptMED - Problem List

     

     Below is the Cover Sheet giving the user a Screen Shot of the Acute/Chronic Problems, Health Maintenance, Prescriptions written and Discontinued Medications.  This sheet may be printed and posted on the top of a paper medical record, given to the patient on transfer or whatever one wishes.

    To me, a Problem List is just that "a list".   It usually is a list used to make decisions (and give an overview/review) when making a treatment decision.   A Problem List isn't necesarily a PMH.  

    DescriptMED Cover Sheet

    R Terry Ellis

    DescriptMED, LLC

    Get Done, Go Home!

    Tour The Chart!

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  • 03-30-2008 9:44 PM In reply to

    • Brendon
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    Re: EMR Problem Lists: common failures

    Gil,

    As I said it is real easy to get detail.  One click to open, one to close.  

    Really this is such a part of our applition that our users praise as how easy it is to use.

    If it is thinking inside the box, I doubt our group of Physicians do that very well,given the many requests we get for enhancements.

    I think in this case, the box is built very well and requires very limited Physician time.

    By the way in eMedRec, I could show you a problem list like yours that could be edited just like a word processor, since eMedRec has a built in Word processor with all the fields.

    So to be clear, if a Physician wanted the record in eMedRec the way you are doing it, they could, when I get a spare minute I will type yours in a Problem List that is really a word document linked to our data variable fieldfs for Problems.